Excellent observations Frank. I understand I’m not the target audience, being female an all, but I’ve missed adventure lit and the characters that grow inside it. Too much emphasis on action for sure. My personal favs are Children’s lit. Kipling and Stevenson. I savor them. Boys becoming men. Men guiding them. Capers. Total sucker for a good caper.
Ironically Jeanne, you are still the target audience. L’Amour or Fleming all had huge female followings. When art tries to say something specific to someone specific it tends to find its widest audience, while making everything for everyone usually ends up meaning it’s for no one. And that’s why we have such a cultural doldrums. Too much for everyone, and nothing for anyone.
I’ll add that classic Adventure video game characters like Lara Croft are incredibly popular as well and on a recent episode of the Men’s Adventure Fiction Podcast they had a female author on who wrote her own adventure book:
Merona Grant and the Lost Tomb of Golgotha by Brina Williamson
I suspect part of the reason that the whole "friends we make along the way" is no longer a trope is because male camraderie is viewed suspiciously by editor and mainstream publishers as being toxic masculinity. You can no longer have a small group of only men working towards a common goal, you have to throw in at least one female nowadays in order to be "inclusive."
I think you are way more correct than a lot of folks would like to admit. It is a very common story style/format if you go back 50 years. But the closer you get to present day the less and less of it you see. I mean the story is in the words itself, brotherhood and camaraderie have taken a back seat to “found family.” I mean even leadership as an idea or theme is more or less nonexistent now when it was ubiquitous in older media.
I think another thing is that some writers out there can't imagine two men being buddies without them being secretly gay. The same way some writers pair up a man and a woman instead of keeping them as friends. Not everything needs to be romance.
You see this absolutely all the time. My other favorite is when old letters between two chaps get dug up and the language is very effusive and literary. All of a sudden the gay speculations start. These are ofc intimate letters between men who had very profound friendships and are written earnestly and in the language and emotion of the time. The modern mind boggles.
Exactly, and let's not forget the most infamous. Frodo and Sam somehow being gay, even though Tolkien modeled their relationship off of a British Officer and his faithful batman.
What your talking about (less plot, more journey) sounds like the Eastern style of writing stories, specifically Japanese. Apparently it comes from a more cyclic/reincarnational view of time as well as the Buddhist worldview of the inner perfection being more important than external action.
It does seem to match up with a classic trope of shonen anime (the friends we made along the way).
Aristotle argues that plot (every event being contingent on the last event) is the best way to craft a play, with characters close behind. But I think that could be done in an episodic kind of way, where you have "the boyz" traipsing through various sub-plots that maybe have a vague tie-in together for a final climax. It wouldn't be as beat-driven, it would allow for breathing room, but it wouldn't be aimless.
How important is it that the main cast be only men? How much less appealing is a story to you as more female characters are added? Would you say other men would feel similarly?
Very interesting looping in the eastern style of stories. Slice of Life popularity in anime is likely a good touch point. Had not thought of it from this angle. And I think for me, a male only cast of characters is preferred for certain stories and wholly underutilized. And that simultaneously doesn’t really mean that a story should be woman-less. Women are great and what adventure doesn’t involve romantic trysts or damsels? But yeah, the moment you put a woman in the main cast (just like in real life) you alter the male in-group dynamics and add the potential for romantic tension, jealousy, and self censorship. Men just don’t act the same with women around, get in the same trouble, or take the same risks. Women also provide easy stakes. Quite often, exceptions prove the rule. For example, Lazue in Michael Crichton’s Pirate Latitudes is functionally a man even though she is a female.
“Lazue — Lazue, an excellent marksman possessed of extraordinary vision, can see far more accurately than anyone else. Raised as a man, this woman can confuse her enemies by baring her breasts to gain advantage. Her ability to traverse through shallow waters and coral reefs make her an important asset to the Cassandra. The tale's epilogue mentions that Lazue is eventually hanged in Charleston, Carolina around 1704, as a pirate and alleged lover of Blackbeard's. Her name is a likely pun of the French phrase "les yeux" meaning "the eyes".” - Wikipedia
So yes, brotherhood, brotherly love, and Camaraderie are all fundamentally male gendered emotions and themes.
The idea of shonen "slice of life" and "camaraderie" are very interesting. I seem to concentrate on that quite a bit in my writing, which seems to be pretty weak on the plot. "Found family" is a very different thing from camaraderie, especially male camaraderie.
Your example with Lazue above is interesting, because I would have said that you couldn't have a woman at all in the camaraderie trope because it is specifically deals with how men bond with each other in the absence of women. It looks like you could add a woman to the "band" if you are careful about it. But I agree that we have lost a genre that was specifically focussed on (non sexualized!!!) male-male bonding.
Note: Of course we can, and do, have a type of adventure story that does include women soldiers / comrades but the point, I think, is that there should also be room for the male camaraderie adventure genre. Because yes, having a woman DOES change the dynamic and DOES change how men act.
I'd be interested what you think about "beats" or required events for this genre. Or would that detract from what you're trying to define?
I might do an essay on specific beats but I think there is a ton of flexibility to the adventure genre especially. You could do worse than the below for just a simple straightforward adventure story. You could even build a hangout plot around those beats by expanding the time between them. Structure is a chicken and an egg sort of thing imo.
I'm not gonna lie, I could care less about whether stories are "masculine" or "feminine" or any of the "literary men" discourse, but you are correct that that StoryGrid definition of action is completely appalling and that the journey and "the friends we made along the way" is a very solid foundation for a good yarn.
I actually specifically disagree when you say, "requires men, not people." I think of the co-ed soldiers in Starship Troopers, Michelle from the Walking Dead, or basically any fantasy adventure campaign that usually has some rogueish chick, a healer of sorts, a druid or elf or other coded nature lover etc. that is female. Though fantasy is a different genre, you did cite Lord of the Rings, so, fair game.
I would like to know more about what you mean regarding Lone Wolf narratives. I think literally of Lone Wolf & Cub or the various Yojimbo stories that are very adventure as you describe it. Or Robinson Crusoe. Or a lot of Jack London's work.
Hey DB, that's fine, I get it. I expected this would stir a gut reaction one way or another in people. None of this is meant to say female character's CAN'T be part of the crew. But there is a genre of story where they aren't that does not really get written anymore that a lot of men want to read.
And actually, in Heinlein's Starship Troopers there are no female space marines. The women are only allowed to do certain jobs (for example they make the best pilots). So much of the action and camaraderie in the book is male only.
But yeah, about Lone Wolf Narratives. I'm personally sick of the lone wolf characters in adventure. Not saying that Lone Wolf characters don't or can't exist in the adventure genre. Look I'm not here to dictate what adventure is or isn't. I'm here to define the specific type of stories I'd like to personally see more of.
And my point is that ultimately for every Wild Bunch we get thirty Lone Wolf McQuaid's. But I think the Wild Bunch style narratives scratch the adventure itch much more effectively.
Re: Starship Troopers, haven’t read it. Speaking of the movie, which def had its own separate concerns in mind, but nevertheless, is a camaraderie-led adventure at root.
Thanks. Still working out the kinks but it's on the bucket list. I feel like these hangout stories would lend themselves well to the long term serialized format I write in here on Substack.
I know, still it just never seemed to click with me to an extent. Jesus himself is more important to me than Jerusalem. Maybe that’s just a me problem.
An excellent article on what needs to be done and memoirs are great pieces of literature for men. I read The Outlaws two Decembers ago and it was fantastic, but the memoir that reads exactly like an Adventure book is Peter Kemp’s Trilogy of books: Mine Were of Trouble, No Colour or Crest, and Alms for Oblivion.
What an excellent article. Reading the old Argosy magazines is a true pleasure for the reasons you mentioned. I never figured out why I liked them more than most modern adventure stories, now I do.
It is not the presence or absence of women, but a kind of suffocating "feminization" that forms a key element of this phenomenon. It is also infuses similar soul deadening changes in a lot of our cultural institutions, narratives, processes, etc.
On another note, the StoryGrid distillations you shared reflect a different problem as well: a shallower culture that reflects back only modern, trendy, mass market, or blandly populist works. They've been taught not to look up, nor back, so they eat the candy they want (so to speak) and the whole thing is a mirror reflecting back another mirror, powered by the Internet and probably serving Hollywood along the way.
I should add more specifically that that plot formula reflects a certain modern trope and its assertion illustrates the limited worldview I was positing.
Excellent observations Frank. I understand I’m not the target audience, being female an all, but I’ve missed adventure lit and the characters that grow inside it. Too much emphasis on action for sure. My personal favs are Children’s lit. Kipling and Stevenson. I savor them. Boys becoming men. Men guiding them. Capers. Total sucker for a good caper.
Ironically Jeanne, you are still the target audience. L’Amour or Fleming all had huge female followings. When art tries to say something specific to someone specific it tends to find its widest audience, while making everything for everyone usually ends up meaning it’s for no one. And that’s why we have such a cultural doldrums. Too much for everyone, and nothing for anyone.
I’ll add that classic Adventure video game characters like Lara Croft are incredibly popular as well and on a recent episode of the Men’s Adventure Fiction Podcast they had a female author on who wrote her own adventure book:
Merona Grant and the Lost Tomb of Golgotha by Brina Williamson
https://www.amazon.com/Merona-Grant-Lost-Tomb-Golgotha/dp/1974587959/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1I5B4T2C90N33&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.WL3Gq5AsDDHSZCMPyqNICw.WuWifPuE7acQTDzG443awj2KE4HqNcYK8AeS-53FTKM&dib_tag=se&keywords=Merona+Grant&qid=1743166658&sprefix=merona+grant%2Caps%2C102&sr=8-1
I suspect part of the reason that the whole "friends we make along the way" is no longer a trope is because male camraderie is viewed suspiciously by editor and mainstream publishers as being toxic masculinity. You can no longer have a small group of only men working towards a common goal, you have to throw in at least one female nowadays in order to be "inclusive."
I think you are way more correct than a lot of folks would like to admit. It is a very common story style/format if you go back 50 years. But the closer you get to present day the less and less of it you see. I mean the story is in the words itself, brotherhood and camaraderie have taken a back seat to “found family.” I mean even leadership as an idea or theme is more or less nonexistent now when it was ubiquitous in older media.
I think another thing is that some writers out there can't imagine two men being buddies without them being secretly gay. The same way some writers pair up a man and a woman instead of keeping them as friends. Not everything needs to be romance.
You see this absolutely all the time. My other favorite is when old letters between two chaps get dug up and the language is very effusive and literary. All of a sudden the gay speculations start. These are ofc intimate letters between men who had very profound friendships and are written earnestly and in the language and emotion of the time. The modern mind boggles.
Exactly, and let's not forget the most infamous. Frodo and Sam somehow being gay, even though Tolkien modeled their relationship off of a British Officer and his faithful batman.
What your talking about (less plot, more journey) sounds like the Eastern style of writing stories, specifically Japanese. Apparently it comes from a more cyclic/reincarnational view of time as well as the Buddhist worldview of the inner perfection being more important than external action.
It does seem to match up with a classic trope of shonen anime (the friends we made along the way).
Aristotle argues that plot (every event being contingent on the last event) is the best way to craft a play, with characters close behind. But I think that could be done in an episodic kind of way, where you have "the boyz" traipsing through various sub-plots that maybe have a vague tie-in together for a final climax. It wouldn't be as beat-driven, it would allow for breathing room, but it wouldn't be aimless.
How important is it that the main cast be only men? How much less appealing is a story to you as more female characters are added? Would you say other men would feel similarly?
Very interesting looping in the eastern style of stories. Slice of Life popularity in anime is likely a good touch point. Had not thought of it from this angle. And I think for me, a male only cast of characters is preferred for certain stories and wholly underutilized. And that simultaneously doesn’t really mean that a story should be woman-less. Women are great and what adventure doesn’t involve romantic trysts or damsels? But yeah, the moment you put a woman in the main cast (just like in real life) you alter the male in-group dynamics and add the potential for romantic tension, jealousy, and self censorship. Men just don’t act the same with women around, get in the same trouble, or take the same risks. Women also provide easy stakes. Quite often, exceptions prove the rule. For example, Lazue in Michael Crichton’s Pirate Latitudes is functionally a man even though she is a female.
“Lazue — Lazue, an excellent marksman possessed of extraordinary vision, can see far more accurately than anyone else. Raised as a man, this woman can confuse her enemies by baring her breasts to gain advantage. Her ability to traverse through shallow waters and coral reefs make her an important asset to the Cassandra. The tale's epilogue mentions that Lazue is eventually hanged in Charleston, Carolina around 1704, as a pirate and alleged lover of Blackbeard's. Her name is a likely pun of the French phrase "les yeux" meaning "the eyes".” - Wikipedia
So yes, brotherhood, brotherly love, and Camaraderie are all fundamentally male gendered emotions and themes.
The idea of shonen "slice of life" and "camaraderie" are very interesting. I seem to concentrate on that quite a bit in my writing, which seems to be pretty weak on the plot. "Found family" is a very different thing from camaraderie, especially male camaraderie.
Your example with Lazue above is interesting, because I would have said that you couldn't have a woman at all in the camaraderie trope because it is specifically deals with how men bond with each other in the absence of women. It looks like you could add a woman to the "band" if you are careful about it. But I agree that we have lost a genre that was specifically focussed on (non sexualized!!!) male-male bonding.
Note: Of course we can, and do, have a type of adventure story that does include women soldiers / comrades but the point, I think, is that there should also be room for the male camaraderie adventure genre. Because yes, having a woman DOES change the dynamic and DOES change how men act.
I'd be interested what you think about "beats" or required events for this genre. Or would that detract from what you're trying to define?
I might do an essay on specific beats but I think there is a ton of flexibility to the adventure genre especially. You could do worse than the below for just a simple straightforward adventure story. You could even build a hangout plot around those beats by expanding the time between them. Structure is a chicken and an egg sort of thing imo.
https://plottr.com/action-adventure-plot-template/
Interesting.
I'm not gonna lie, I could care less about whether stories are "masculine" or "feminine" or any of the "literary men" discourse, but you are correct that that StoryGrid definition of action is completely appalling and that the journey and "the friends we made along the way" is a very solid foundation for a good yarn.
I actually specifically disagree when you say, "requires men, not people." I think of the co-ed soldiers in Starship Troopers, Michelle from the Walking Dead, or basically any fantasy adventure campaign that usually has some rogueish chick, a healer of sorts, a druid or elf or other coded nature lover etc. that is female. Though fantasy is a different genre, you did cite Lord of the Rings, so, fair game.
I would like to know more about what you mean regarding Lone Wolf narratives. I think literally of Lone Wolf & Cub or the various Yojimbo stories that are very adventure as you describe it. Or Robinson Crusoe. Or a lot of Jack London's work.
Hey DB, that's fine, I get it. I expected this would stir a gut reaction one way or another in people. None of this is meant to say female character's CAN'T be part of the crew. But there is a genre of story where they aren't that does not really get written anymore that a lot of men want to read.
And actually, in Heinlein's Starship Troopers there are no female space marines. The women are only allowed to do certain jobs (for example they make the best pilots). So much of the action and camaraderie in the book is male only.
But yeah, about Lone Wolf Narratives. I'm personally sick of the lone wolf characters in adventure. Not saying that Lone Wolf characters don't or can't exist in the adventure genre. Look I'm not here to dictate what adventure is or isn't. I'm here to define the specific type of stories I'd like to personally see more of.
And my point is that ultimately for every Wild Bunch we get thirty Lone Wolf McQuaid's. But I think the Wild Bunch style narratives scratch the adventure itch much more effectively.
Re: Starship Troopers, haven’t read it. Speaking of the movie, which def had its own separate concerns in mind, but nevertheless, is a camaraderie-led adventure at root.
DB don’t get Starship Troopers book vs movie discourse going in these comments. We’ll be here all day!
Loved this article Frank. I've been wanting to write a hangout adventure in the fantasy genre kind of inspired by the Spanish picaresque novel.
That sounds like it would be awesome
Thanks. Still working out the kinks but it's on the bucket list. I feel like these hangout stories would lend themselves well to the long term serialized format I write in here on Substack.
That’s actually a good point because of their episodic nature. I feel like not being episodic holds a lot of serials back on here
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picaresque_novel
I thought the cure was taking back Constantinople? Lol good article.
And Jerusalem.
I don’t much see the point of Jerusalem. Never understood the draw Europe & Japan have much better weather, food and better neighbours and all.
It is the Holy city, where Jesus walked, but my main concern is for the Church of the Holy Sepulcher.
I know, still it just never seemed to click with me to an extent. Jesus himself is more important to me than Jerusalem. Maybe that’s just a me problem.
Perhaps you're right. I just think Christians should control Jerusalem.
An excellent article on what needs to be done and memoirs are great pieces of literature for men. I read The Outlaws two Decembers ago and it was fantastic, but the memoir that reads exactly like an Adventure book is Peter Kemp’s Trilogy of books: Mine Were of Trouble, No Colour or Crest, and Alms for Oblivion.
Here’s all three collected in one book: https://www.amazon.com/Ten-Years-War-Peter-Trilogy/dp/B08PXBGT5M/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3P1TUB73880LB&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.5mdIxw8_hFoITabI0f3KX5lWtpwDAL1Vu58w3ZhRFrmqDRxSYGmdErzngBjgHEJo2bCosS8CRKc_MkKw_I79lCeWfyhSENa6S1cSgH6ppvmtdR061cB_AhFJ4BbOLefYDoc15KplrskzrL0UKjzi-FTLJ51Iz8N7Hb4z1kkGSnVLzacfNlrgLfSP76DrOiydeYH9z0ZXSskuqpz3X3asnG9gSWvhcY2LfSye7K9qu6o.jynJwSdk94bMpvHTWFFgvxKebla3JYxRpcKzBHmlShM&dib_tag=se&keywords=Peter+Kemp&qid=1743163317&sprefix=peter+kemp%2Caps%2C113&sr=8-3
What an excellent article. Reading the old Argosy magazines is a true pleasure for the reasons you mentioned. I never figured out why I liked them more than most modern adventure stories, now I do.
Thanks for this! I’ve struggled to put my finger on it for a while
It is not the presence or absence of women, but a kind of suffocating "feminization" that forms a key element of this phenomenon. It is also infuses similar soul deadening changes in a lot of our cultural institutions, narratives, processes, etc.
On another note, the StoryGrid distillations you shared reflect a different problem as well: a shallower culture that reflects back only modern, trendy, mass market, or blandly populist works. They've been taught not to look up, nor back, so they eat the candy they want (so to speak) and the whole thing is a mirror reflecting back another mirror, powered by the Internet and probably serving Hollywood along the way.
I should add more specifically that that plot formula reflects a certain modern trope and its assertion illustrates the limited worldview I was positing.
Yepp you nailed it. Most of it is downstream of a totally feminized theory of mind and it creates this massive feedback loop.
I’m glad someone finally bashed StoryGrid. Their entire project makes me sick.
I understand. I am a great Patrick O’Brien fan.